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An interview with Dr Vernon Neppe ©


Where does this discussion derive from?

This is mainly a fictitious interview. However, it has initial origins, partly based on responses to questions on Dr Neppe was discussing his model and comparing it with another different one, Tom Campbell's My Big Toe. November and December 2011. This is greatly adapted further here for easier and more coherent reading. It gives a taste of the excitement of the model of Drs Neppe and Close... and of the book Reality Begins with Consciousness.

What is our usual reality?

We're physically alive and limited in what we experience as reality. We living sentient beings experience most often just a tiny component of reality, namely what we call "3S-1t". This is our usual worldly domain of 3 spatial dimensions and 1 point in time--not even the past or future, just the present moment.

Is that accurate?

No. Even this 3S-1t is incomplete in our experience of reality. Consciousness always play as a role: With 3S-1t, there is always C-matrix. So actually for most people it would subjectively be 3S-1t-1C.

How careful were you in considering all the data?

Our book is a unit. It was revised literally hundreds of times and there are already those re-reading it so as to obtain a perspective. So far, at least two individuals are writing books based on our Reality Begins with Consciousness (RBC). The paradigm we describe is a mouthful but truly remarkable.

What's it called?

The Triadic Dimensional-Distinction Vortical Paradigm (TDVP). But don't worry I'll explain what we think without talking about that much. Of course, with respect, to understand this you should read Reality Begins with Consciousness.

So can I not just read these columns to understand your theory?

No, these comments may have limited intelligibility without investing time and effort. In a way, it is a multidisciplinary course at University level. First course entree is undergraduate possibly: Reality Begins with Consciousness (RBC). Second course dessert is our forthcoming book, which follows RBC namely Space, Time and Consciousness (STC). And it impacts across all the sciences and mathematics

Are your conclusions justified?

We think they are excellent building blocks for the future. This is the direction not the place. Our model is powerful, though not omniscient. But its a better beginning based on measures than any other related so-called "Theories of Everything". We compared 24 involving "consciousness", "reality" or "dimensions". Ours scored 39/39. Only our previous earlier models (Neppe 27/39, Close 23/39) even scored over 20!

So the strengths are powerful?

Yes! Many who have studied this model think so. The mathematical theorems and proofs, are solidly based and justified and involve numerous different approaches. Similarly, our empirical data is based on the 3S-1t jigsaw puzzle of higher dimensions being expressed incompletely but still feasible and not falsified. This is not just physics, but the life sciences, the consciousness sciences and the psychological sciences. This is one reason why we're excited because we believe TDVP to indeed be a paradigm shift.

Does your model apply the physical to real experience and non-physical to consciousness alone?

No. We do not use terms like "non-physical" though non-physical is descriptive. In our notation, we don't need to use non-physical because we refer to a broader consciousness (C-substrate), necessarily with space and time (so CST). They are inextricably and inseparably linked in part.

In part?

Yes. Elsewhere they are tethered together. But like balloons on zillions of strings they can be separated in other parts, but this means that they are meaningfully linked through that tethering. This may have relevance in areas such as psi phenomena and also entanglement, for example.

But I don't understand? What happens when there is only "Consciousness", for example, if physical death is survived? Surely that's non-physical?

No. When there does not appear to be a physical element, there may be a loosening such that consciousness appears alone like a balloon from the tethered hand. But space and time are impacted in our conventional 3S-1t domain. It may appear relatively non-physical in domains where S=0 and T=0 reflecting ostensibly pure finite or transfinite consciousness dimensions. But there is always the potential for space and time, even in the infinite.

I noticed you speak of infinity. You have infinity in your model?

Indeed, yes. Reality is a unit. In fact, our philosophical perspective is "Unified Monism". There are two fundamental and intertwined, inseparable components to reality, namely, Finite Subreality and Infinite Subreality.

But you spoke of 3S-1t. This means we live in 4 dimensions--3 of space, 1 of time?

More than that, we posit. Everything we do has both, so physical scientists argue that we can reduce our experience only to 3S-1t. But we also experience necessarily as living beings with brains "consciousness". So we could argue we are at minimum 3S-1t-1C. There "reductionists" reduce: They incorporate "consciousness" as part of the brain.

You disagree?

Very much so. Essentially the physics standard model works maybe in 99.99% of cases. But there are exceptions. And that is explained by using an extended model of consciousness and supported by the vast evidence that has accumulated in the areas that could be called relatively non-local: For living humans everything outside 3S-1t is non-local but that is only relative to our current experience of reality.

And so? What's your perspective on "consciousness".

It's very complex. Part does relate to the brain. But there also appears to be an aspect that may be modulated by the brain, but originates outside it.

So our reality is 5 dimensions. 3 of space, 1 of time, 1 of consciousness--not four that scientists often speak about?

It's likely far more than that, but most individuals in their sentient physically alive beings don't recognize more than that.

How come?

More specifically, it could be N-dimensions of "consciousness". N is a number that we cannot conceive of --it is transfinite.

And this relates to consciousness?

There can be numerous ways broader consciousness is experienced: We can transcend to higher dimensions of the "finite". So we sometimes may experience transfinite, discrete "consciousness" . And we're always linked whether we know it, with "metaconsciousness". Metaconsciousness is the term applied to all-encompassing continuous consciousness that derives from the infinite information available. Metaconsciousness involves meaningful all-encompassing information. It expresses itself in discrete fragments of finite consciousness.

Please explain N again here.

NC signifies any number of "consciousness" dimensions. We call that C-substrate so people will understand that there are different kinds of consciousness.

Does everyone have the same number of dimensions of consciousness?

No. Not even the same individual will have the same number always.

Why the variation?

Because every individual depends on the level of transcendence of consciousness, if any, that they have attained. It varies both as a more consistent trait over time, or as a specific momentary state (e.g. dreams or meditation may allow attaining of a special heightened level of consciousness dimensions).

But what about cultures and societies? Where do they fit in?

Excellent question. We're more complex than individuals alone. Our model refers to a collection of individuals such as families, groups, societies, ethnic backgrounds. We call this "individual-units" and so we individuals are made up of zillions of individual-units.

Now let's get back to the infinite. This really intrigues me.

It's a key element: The infinite and the finite subrealities are so inextricably intertwined, that even though we don't know it, we're impacting both subrealities.


Potentially, yes. But that depends on the ability of sentient beings to open to those greater bidirectional realities. The infinite interfaces with the finite all the time. We impact the continuous infinite. Conversely, the infinite impacts us in the discrete finite. We have a "track" of our special reality that we're experiencing. But very few living humans recognize this. They live a day to day 3S-1t not even realizing that there may be more to consciousness!

Let's get back to a basic. You have infinity. You have infinite consciousness. But surely that inseparable space and time don't exist there? Does your model not break down?

No, that's the beauty of it all. Amazingly, our model allows for the infinite to have eternal time and infinite unextended, continuous space. And we experience tiny amounts of this in the "life-tracks" we live in.

What do you mean by "life-tracks"?

The finite and infinite are one. Within that vast expanse of the infinite are tracks that we all have intersecting with other tracks. These are specific and become our finite life track, which expresses itself in discrete events in our life and even in the transfinite consciousness component as well.

What's the parallel?

It's rather like a massive unending ocean. Within it are these little islands, these little continents, which can be perceived as the finite life. It can be perceived as the multitude of "vortices" because within those countries, continent, islands are all these subcomponents as well. We can change them and modify. We cannot modify the whole of the massive ocean, but we can modify little bits that are relevant. And when the ocean comes flooding onto shore the vortices interface and information comes through.

So we can truly affect our present, our future and those of others?

Yes. We have a fundamental freedom of choice and we can change the life of others we deal with. This is limited, because of the vast expanse of ocean, and also because within our psychological consciousness we practice our learned and reflex behaviors. But it's there though usually not noticed. This is very exciting.

And we can really grow in awareness?

Yes, potentially. Imagine what we could do with opening our awareness to the infinite reality: Metaconsciousness implies an amazing resource for meaningful broader information from the infinite that is there to utilize.

So how does it work?

The mathematics is such that STC (space, time, and consciousness) always exists in all dimensions. However, in dimensions, particularly at the transfinite level, S and T both may equal zero. Therefore the expression is pure metaconsciousness.

But there's more?

Of course. One component of our broader consciousness is this higher transfinite and infinite (meta) consciousness. But there are others; The endpoint is neurological consciousness in living sentient beings and psychological consciousness pervades experience and may have components within and outside the brain. Some aspects may be basic like thinking, emotion and drive. Nothing fancy.

But higher levels as in meditation, may attain higher "spiritual" levels?

Yes. Again, metaconsciousness implies meaningful broader information from the infinite. But we may experience it finitely and positively, for example in love, in courage, in kindness and compassion, in knowledge, wisdom and understanding. But we can also experience negativity, like hate.

Now does this model fit mathematically?

Yes. We even approached it with math and logic. The mathematics is such that STC always exists in all dimensions. However, in dimensions particularly at the transfinite level, S and T both may equal zero.

That's why we can have pure consciousness?

Or experience it that way. The expression is pure metaconsciousness. But remember that this is just one component of our broader consciousness--- besides that endpoint of neurological consciousness in living sentient beings which has its own expression separately too, and the learnt habits of psychological consciousness certainly within and disputably outside the brain.

So how does that effect you and me today?

Because we live in our physical domains of 3S-1t-1C (or more C) experience, we experience only a tiny portion of our own potential reality. The rest is hidden. It's like a little jigsaw puzzle in a broader reality.

But that does not mean that this would be the same in different domains?

Exactly! For example, one fundamental element is three dimensional space, with three dimensions of time and three of "consciousness" (3S-3T-3C). Our conceptual experience would be very different in that context. And if there were survival after bodily death (and there is remarkably, cogent evidence for that) or if we had subjective out-of-body experiences (OBEs), we may be experiencing different domains.

And what would be the most dimensions?

In the infinite context, this could be NS-NT-NC theoretically. Maybe that could be experienced by a supreme being or consciousness. And us? After death? Possibly the so-called "discarnate" entity may be experiencing still some finite dimensional component subrealities such as 0S-0T-nC ( like a specific series of transfinite consciousness dimensions). The same could apply to someone having an OBE.

It's even more complex than that, isn't it?

Yes, it seems so. If time is experienced then we may be also experiencing some kind of multidimensional time like 2T or 3T. And dream states may also show some combinations. Essentially, we are limited by our "physical reduction valves" in 3S-1t . Yet, in all these other states, our limitations depend on the state we're in at that time and this dictates our perceptions, conceptions and experiences!

Let's get back to something that is fundamental to this model. How can I use your model in my daily life to help create a better Reality for all?

Excellent question and a key one. This is a brief not comprehensive response.


I cover this area in some detail, yet not as a source of emphasis, in the book Reality Begins with Consciousness particularly in the second edition. Our book is about a unifying metaparadigm, not mysticism or theology. Yet the question is implied and integral to our model. Will there be more? Indeed. This will likely be covered more in our book for the General Reader.

I'm listening.

Essentially, we see TDVP as an all encompassing paradigm. This means it hopefully should be able to motivate "a better reality for all." And indeed it can. So very relevant here is the profound link of science and spirituality? Correct. Effectively, by introducing the Infinite Subreality as an essential component of existence that pervades and interacts with everything, there is a major source of inspiration and meaning for all actions.

A higher being?

Some would see that Infinite subreality as a deity or divinity. It may be. But it is separate from the special theological qualities that may be attributed. Additionally, the Infinite subreality is defined within the fabric of the laws of nature, not supernatural. This does not mean that it is not remarkable. We simply do not know the rules of nature that surround the Infinite Subreality.

But that higher being could be there?

Yes. All encompassing space, time, consciousness, life and order in the infinite. This is the hierarchy of the Infinite. Cantor's infinity of infinities, maybe.

And you mentioned the role of vortices there, intersecting?

Exactly: the idea reflects fluctuating dimensions brought about through the content of zillions of vortices in a process of interacting across, between and within finite dimensions and also the infinite. We call this "indivension" referring to the vortices across dimensions. This fluctuates greatly all the time. Sometimes we can reach only minimally, other times "we can see forever" --maybe dreams or meditation facilitate that.

So we can reach beyond?

Yes! Into those discrete transfinite domains. This allows TDVP to characterize different qualities such as morality, honesty, courage, lovingkindness, determined zeal, as different "higher" quality dimensions.

But can we measure them?

Strangely yes. We've involved some complex mathematics developed by Dr Close, my co-author, called the Calculus of Distinctions. When we add in measures of degree ( like, limited, good, better, best for example--we call these ordinal measures, and this is standard in the Psychological Sciences), then we can measure it ordinally.

And spiritually?

You can see that this model allows for "higher levels" of attainment as in many mystical teachings. This includes Kabbalic Mysticism, for example: that portrays ten fundamental "Sefirot" (effectively, high levels of moral and spiritual attainment levels) and four levels of elevation to an Ein Sof (which means "without an end" or "infinity" in English). We do not stipulate these specifics in our TDVP model, but this parallel example is easily understood.

And do you use them?

Yes, each one of these can be defined using our scientific definition of dimensions, reflecting examples of the higher dimensions of metaconsciousness. Obviously, they interface each other. This is one reason for the "zillions" of interfacing higher transfinite dimensions--for the "vortical indivension" making up an amazing discrete finite web and infinitely, like a blob on a vast, endless landscape!

And the linking between the finite and infinite?

You can imagine a direct spiritual bridge. That always exists between the finite and the infinite. And the finite here is our basic 3S-1t living physical human experience.

A one way bridge?

No. This bridge is bidirectional: We can impact reality, just as the infinite can impact us. This bridge may be narrow (often in individuals) or wide (as in ethnic, social and cultural groups). We impact everyone and everything by our actions.

But what about our brain and body? What role does that play?

A big one! There is basic physiology and psychology within the body and the nervous system of sentient beings. This means behaviors can occur as a consequence of this. Individuals need not be spiritual or for that matter "intuitive". They can apply these skills to varying degrees and their "elevation" across fluctuating dimensions is relevant possibly to their own spiritual development, both in a state and trait way.

State and trait?

Yes. State refers to the now of our experience. We're sleeping, dreaming, awake, meditating, for example. Trait refers to the long-term characteristics, the less changing elements, possibly in this context, the overall level we can attain in reaching out of our 3S-1t to higher consciousness over our life. Everyone will vary: You may call it "spiritual elevation".

So we can change and we can carry on after we physically die?

I think this is likely. Fundamental to our TDVP model is the existence in infinite subreality of the potential for physical life and effectively therefore we all exist always as eternal life, not necessarily entirely individually. We may be like in a dream without or with limited boundaries for our ego.

A speculation?

More than that. This means that this extra component of the TDVP model would be refuted ("falsified in science") if there were not a life after death in some form (it may not be individual). But this enormous implications for behavior.


Yes, I'm excited by this. You can see this is not only a scientific model, based on best available data in our limited jigsaw puzzle pieces we can experience in our 3S-1t reality. It is also mathematically and logically based, too: We refer to theorems, axioms and great mathematicians. It's not fly by night.

And this has enormous implications for behavior?

True. TDVP is not a fly by night theory.

I would think it is a carefully built scientific and mathematical model, developed over a combined half century by two experienced and creative scientists whose contributions are internationally known and pioneering.

Some would think that. Read Reality Begins with Consciousness: A Paradigm Shift that Works to make up your own mind!

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